Teaching lessons to toddlers: What do you think?
Lucy is developing this rather annoying habit of yelling at us (by “us” I mean me) when we are not paying attention to her.
This usually happens at the end of the day, when Eric gets home. Lucy is in her booster seat finishing her dinner. Eric and I start talking — catching up on our day, trading work war stories, sharing daycare pick up/drop off tales — and the child, she starts squawking.
This is what happened on Monday, when I finally decided the rational discussion was not working and I had to do something drastic to get her to understand that what she was doing was not nice or acceptable behaviour. I’m curious to know what you think, as Eric wasn’t sure it was the right thing to do.
“NO MUMMA!”
“Lucy, Daddy and I are just talking.”
“No, Mumma.”
“So, as I was saying, he acted like…”
“NO, MUMMA!”
(You have to picture her, fork clutched in her hand, fingers squeezed into balls, pressed down her sides, chin pointing at the ceiling, literally turning pink-faced from the exertion of these yells.)
“Lucy! You cannot yell at Mummy like that. I’m still sitting right here with you. Please apologize for yelling and interrupting.”
“Sorrem, Mommy.”
(The Mommy comes out when she knows she’s in trouble. How does a 2-year-old already know to do this?)
“ANYWAY, the guy was being a total…”
“NO, MUMMA!”
“Fine. You don’t want Mummy talking? You keep yelling at me? Mummy is going to leave then.”
And I walk out of the kitchen into the office. Lucy goes almost hysterical, sobbing, crying for me, begging me to come back. I’m 15 ft. away from her just dying inside listening to this, but I hold out for about three minutes.
When I return, I tell her she cannot be mean to me, that she cannot yell and interrupt, that sometimes Mummies and Daddies have to talk about things. I know she’s only doing what she’s doing because suddenly I am not giving her my 100% like I have been the past two+ hours before Eric comes home. I know it’s one of the reasons she often yells “No, Daddy” when he comes in the door (such a lovely thing for the poor guy to come home to) and won’t go to him — even though she’ll spend the 10 minutes leading up to his arrival asking where he is.
(Anyone else boggled by the so-called logic of toddlers? They truly are exasperating creatures.)
Lucy was very apologetic after this little showdown, and calmed up quickly after I got back. She seemed to really listen this time. She repeated her line once Tuesday night when Eric got home, and I told her “No, that’s not nice, and do you remember what happened when you yelled at Mummy yesterday? Do you want to hurt Mummy again and make her leave?” She solemnly shook her head no and that was the end of that.
Eric said to me later that he wonders if it was right to use “abandonment” as punishment. This comment surprised me, as I didn’t think of what I did in that way at all, and it made me stop and think. All I was trying to show Lucy was that there was a consequence to her actions: You can’t be continually mean to someone and expect them to stick around and take it.
Perhaps this wasn’t the right way to do that? What do you think? What would you have done?
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I think it would work best to try and make her a part of the conversation. It’s like ignoring one friend who is standing right there and talking to another. She is part of the family after all!
I imagine the transition from her being a baby that doesn’t understand anything, to being a full member of the group, must be difficult. Already I find it difficult to include my friends’ toddlers, when we’re all hanging out. My baby is only 3 mos old so she doesn’t mind if we don’t include her
I have to agree with Eric on this one… sorry.
I’d be inclined to suggest sending Lucy to her room, as opposed to you leaving her because she hurt you and made you leave.
sounds like Lucy is right on track. Lexy behaved the same way at her age. I did pretty much what you did. I think you did the right thing even though it may feel like you’re not.
Even when Cait has temper fits (she’s heading very quickly to a terrible two-er), she starts clinging to me and screaming at me the same time. I say, fine, have your fit somewhere else and pick her up and move her 5 feet from me. She has another tantrum but eventually disarms and comes back for a hug. Still crying, mind you, but the temper fit is lessened.
Hang in there - She’ll be a teenager before you know it.
You did not abandon her. You left the room. And then came back.
Don’t they say that 2 is old enough to start time-outs? This was essentially the same thing, wasn’t it? You just left her where she was instead of moving her.
I’m with Doodlesmom on this one. I do not hesitate to walk out of the room when Pearl is having a tantrum. Generally, at 2 they’re looking for a captive audience. I don’t reward undesirable behaviour.
I’m all for including children in conversations and activities, as I know that you are too. At the same time children should learn how and when it is appropriate to “interrupt” a conversation. This sounds like it was more than wanting to tell you something, it was attention seeking and rude.
Lucy is very close in age to Pearl and she understands concepts of “after” and “not okay”, so I assume that Lucy is there too. Now that Lucy knows it’s not okay, maybe next time it happens try starting with “It is not okay to yell at Mommy to get my attention. Mommy is talking to Daddy right now, it will be Lucy’s turn after.” To me it is teaching manners and she seems to have got your message.
To spin it another way, you’re teaching her to be a strong, polite, woman who will not stand by and let someone behave rudely or inappropriately towards her. You model your thoughtful, polite nature to her in your everyday interactions and now you’ve shown her that you also expect to be treated with dignity and respect.
I would have done the same thing, my husband would have had the same response and they may in fact be right.
But I consider those moments a Mummy time-out and tell my daughter that. I return in a better frame of mind and discuss the behaviour with my daughter as a rational parent should.
Carolyn’s right, Lucy’s right at the age for time outs.
I’ve heard that you can’t expect a toddler to stand in a time out for long, so get a little chair (or stool) for her that she is not to use for anything else except time outs. That will be her ‘bad girl’ chair so to speak.
We started the ‘count down’ to ‘3′ with Lexy when she was pretty young. If Mommy reaches the number 3, it’s in the corner (and possibly a swat on the bum if she’s really bad) for you!
After doing that a few times, I never had to get beyond 2. You must, however, be consistent with the consequences. Like the other Moms have said, don’t reward bad behaviour. If she continues with her fits, put her in a time out.
I’ve also heard that a time out should never be longer than the number of minutes equal to their age. So Lucy should only have a time out of 2 minutes. She’ll fuss and fight you on this, but you can also count that down - only 15, 30 seconds, 1 minute left etc. and if you’re good, you can come out…
Lucy was simply trying to gain control of the conversation. She was trying to get the upper hand and as an adult, you did the right thing by establishing boundaries. There is nothing wrong with telling her she needs to wait her turn and when you’re done talking to Daddy, the both of you will love to listen to Lucy talk.
Remember, 2 is the “ME” age! (as is 3, 4, 5 …)
I think you were right and that it is like a time out just with you going somewhere instead of her. She still may do this for a while but she’ll learn that it is not acceptable if you keep doing what you are doing. I try to get Dylan to say excuse me mummy when he wants to say something to me if I’m in a conversation. He remembers most times.
Sorry…I agree with Eric.
I also don’t like the words “You hurt mummy.” “Do you want to hurt mummy again and make her leave?” Technically she didn’t “hurt” you, she may have hurt your feelings but I don’t think two yr olds think of hurt in that manner. I think they think of hurt as injury/pain.
Anyway I’ve dealt with my share of the ME stage and I found the easiest way to teach kids to not interrupt is to remove THEM to time out when they are rude like that.
I bought a small chair for Kylie and the hubby painted it red and then stenciled Time Out on the back. The chair sits against the wall by the TV *this way she cannot enjoy TV while in time out*. She does not use the chair for anything but time outs.
When she interrupts or any of the other time out offenses I take her to the chair and tell her she is going into time out for *whatever*. I have a kitchen timer and I set it for 3 minutes (her age now) and she is to sit there until it dings. Then I come to her, kneel down tell her again why she went into time out. She apologizes. I give her a hug and a kiss and that’s it until the next time.
Lucy is a pretty smart cookie and I believe she will understand the concept of time out and be able to understand the reasons why she must observe a time out.
Don’t fall into the habit that Kylie’s parents have…they are always threatening to send Ky to time out and rarely do. When they do all holy hell breaks out because Ky can’t understand why they decided to do it that time. I don’t have that problem here. When I point to the time out chair, she goes, quietly. She observes her time, listens to me when I come back and reiterate why she went into time out, she apologizes, we trade hugs and kisses and move on.
It’s such a hard one eh? Especially when most times you’re thinking on your feet!
Kylah’s been doing the same thing lately. She interrupts Josh and I all the time when we’re talking. We don’t put up with it. I don’t want to be “those” parents that are having adult conversation and then allow their kids to talk in the middle of it by paying attention to them. I think it’s very important for my kids to learn that it’s rude to interrupt and they need to wait their turn.
Josh and I always say to Kylah (and we will do the same with Liam and any other kids we have) “Kylah, Daddy’s (or Mommy) talking right now, you need to wait and listen.”
If she doesn’t we’ll say it a bit more sternly and warn a time out… and then if she does it again or acts up more, she gets an automatic time-out for two minutes.
We’ve done this right from the beginning so she’s prettttty good.
I don’t think I would’ve left the room like you did because it’s almost like you’re punishing yourself. I think she’s the one that needs to be removed from the “action”.
I do also think that consistency is key for discipline. I’ve had to come up with a plan, that I use for every “naughty” thing that Kylah does. Of course, there’s other things that get a time out immediately but most times, it’s a strong warning, and then time-out if that doesn’t work… after that, she goes to her room into her bed with no toys and the door closed.
Laura
I don’t think you should beat yourself up over this as we all tend to react in the moment and after reflection, try to do things better.
You have to give Eric credit for not intervening at the time but discussing it later with you when Lucy was not around.
I remember my parents never discussed their work day in front of us…..they considered that adult talk and at the dinner table, the topics were general in which everybody could participate. I agree that is difficult with a 2-year old
[…] 3, 2008 My friend started a conversation on her blog that I find exceptionally interesting. She asked for her readers’ opinion on […]
I agree with the others, that you did the best you could in the situation, but looking back on it, it probably wasn’t best to leave the room. Perhaps taking her out of her chair and putting her in her time-out spot would help. I do that with my Lucia, I just sit with her for ~30 seconds on the bottom step of the stairs and gently ask her if she understands why she’s there and explain to her “mommy asked you not to throw the cards on the ground but you didn’t listen. It’s really important to listen to mommy. Are you ready to go back and pick up the cards?” She doesn’t see it as a punishment, but it breaks the thread of whatever she’s doing “wrong” and gives me a chance to talk to her calmly. If I ask her to do something or stop doing something multiple times, then I often ask her if she wants a time-out and she often gladly takes me up on the offer and we have a little chat and a hug. And about half the time, it actually works and she stops doing the thing I asked her to stop doing.
Sorry - you did ask our opinions!!
But seriously, you guys try to have adult conversations when she’s around? And it works? That never works for us. Sometimes in the car, but almost never at home.
I think she is a member of the family and you should make an effort to include her in conversations (which will necessitate talking about buses and colours and daycare and all kinds of little kid things but hey, that’s parenthood). Trying to have an adult conversation when she’s right there, especially at the dinner table, is like speaking a foreign language in front of someone who can’t understand. I think it’s not fair to Lucy.
I forgot to say that if you were getting frustrated with her behaviour, then leaving the room is absolutely the best thing to do. I do that sometimes if I really feel like I can’t take the screaming/whining/etc. to give myself a chance to breathe and calm down, as long as she’s in a safe situation.
oh and one more thing, you’re very brave (and grown up!) to ask for advice on this. Good for you. I’m sure everyone would have lots of comments on anyone else’s parenting style.
You’ve no idea how much I’m enjoying this discussion, whether I agree with what you’re saying or not. I find it fascinating to hear people’s reactions and what they would do. I think it’s beneficial for everyone to share their techniques — you never know what you’re going to learn from others.
I agree Lucy is ready for time outs now. I’ve always believed kids have to be a certain age to really understand what a time out is, but Lucy’s development over the past two months really shows me she’s at that stage. So this is definitely something we will start implementing. Thank you to everyone who suggested this.
This particular situation was a combination of me reaching a frustration breaking point, and Lucy not listening. Because she was strapped into her chair and still eating, I never would have pulled her out to give her a time out — even now looking back. I did not want to disrupt her dinner that way or associate her booster seat in a negative way.
If it happened again tomorrow, I’d still do the same thing. But I would have made more of a distinction between “hurt Mummy” and “hurt Mummy’s feelings.” I agree with Jen O. that Lucy understands the difference between these two emotions, but I did not articulate it enough.
I will always believe that self preservation in these situations — whether it means walking out of a room, or putting a baby in a crib/playpen — to calm down. I’ve done this on many occasions since Lucy was born, and always return to the situation in a better place.
Lastly, I think it’s important for Lucy to understand that the world does not revolve around her 24/7. Therefore, she needs to learn that not only grown-ups, but other children, need their time and turn and place to be able to talk. We always include Lucy in conversations and never purposely ignore her. In this situation, and every evening when Eric returns home, I always remain sitting at the table with Lucy. But does this mean I have to have a running, non-stop dialogue with her? No. Do I still turn to her and talk? Yes. But her presence in the room does not dictate the entire conversation. I do not want her growing up with an inflated sense of self worth, and I’ve seen this in other kids who walk all over their parents, interrupt, demand and control.
Thanks again to everyone for sharing their thoughts in such a controlled, thoughtful way. It’s one of the things I love most about this site.
[…] time together. Instead of undivided Mummy attention, I’m now split between her and Eric. (This whole issue stems around this, too.) So, Lucy punishes […]